Perkins+Will多年来一直位于世界建筑设计前列，作为在北美拥有最多LEED（绿色建筑）认可的设计公司，Perkins+Will被认为是可持续发展设计的先行者之一。本次BEED ASIA采访到了Perkins+Will董事、国际实践总监Bill Doerge，必达亚洲将带领大家跟着Bill一起了解perkins+will，走进国际建筑设计领域。

Bill directs Perkins+Will’s international practice in Asia, Africa and Europe. He has led many of the firm’s most successful global projects in Asia, the Middle East, Europe, South America and most recently Africa and India. These are the nations and continents where Perkins+Will has emerged as a leader providing exceptional, culturally-sensitive design solutions. Bill’s 25 years of professional experience in architecture, construction management and real estate development cover every type and scope of project. Recent project successes include LG Bundang Corporate Office-Research Complex, AMA Tower, the Qatar Foundation Education City projects, Universidade Agostinho Neto, H.N. Hospital and Reliance’s TFIPL Projects

M: Max from BEED Asia 必达亚洲 http://www.beed.asia
B: Bill Doerge Perkins+Will 帕金斯威尔

M: In the beginning of 1935, Perkins+Will’s first project was about education in Chicago?

从1935年开始，帕金斯威尔所做的首个项目就是教育项目，地点位于芝加哥，是这样的吗？

B: The history of the firm actually predates 1935 and especially with regards to education. Dwight Perkins, the father of Larry Perkins who was one of the founders of Perkins+Will, actually designed an education project in China – at the Nanjing University – around 1908. It isn’t a direct line between Dwight Perkins firm to Larry Perkins firm – Perkins+WIll, but the firm has a very strong history in education. The firm, Perkins+Will, started in 1935 with a school – Crow Island. That school was considered groundbreaking. It was developed in the way that it was all put together: the design, the open space, the attention to scale – especially in the classroom of an elementary school.

The firm’s first university project was in the early 1950’s – at Cornell University.

The firm – Perkins+Will – began in Chicago and has a very strong history in education design. We have worked on almost every major university campus in the US. Our first international project outside the US was for a university in Mexico.   If you look at the firm’s long history since its inception, it has been prominently rooted in education and the design of educational facilities.
公司的历史，尤其是教育实践活动，实际上要追溯到1935年以前。大约在1908年，帕金斯威尔的创始人之一Larry Perkins的父亲Dwight Perkins在中国的南京大学做过设计项目。尽管父子两人的事务所没有承袭关系，但帕金斯威尔在教育领域的确拥有深厚的历史根基。在1935年成立开始，帕金斯威尔设计的第一个教育项目便是克劳岛小学。这所学校被公认为具有开创性的意义。设计方式、开放空间布局、尤其是在小学教室里对尺度的重视等等都被巧妙地整合到了一起。

公司在20世纪50年代完成了首个高等教育项目 —— 康奈尔大学。

帕金斯威尔创立于美国芝加哥，在教育设计领域拥有极为深厚的历史。我们和全美各大重点大学院校几乎都开展过项目合作。我们的第一个国际项目是位于墨西哥的一所大学。回顾公司自创立之初的悠久历史，教育和教育设施的设计始终都处在显要的根基位置。

M: K12 Education or higher education? BEED Asia 必达亚洲 http://www.beed.asia
那么帕金斯威尔的工作是侧重于基础教育还是高等教育呢？

B: We do both. But obviously, higher education is a bigger market in terms of scale. (M: the campus) There are more, larger university campuses. The other issue with K12 Schools, primary and secondary schools, they tend to be a more local product. They use local architects that, for whatever reasons, are involved in these because it is a very community-based project. When we become involved, we tend to come into the bigger schools around the country – around the world – because of our expertise in education planning and our understanding of how they work.

We now have twenty-some offices in North America.  To better respond this local preference, we are putting a K-12 group in each office.

The higher education market is a more complicated market involving not only academic buildings (classrooms) but more specialized building types. You get into student life. You get into sports and recreation and you get into larger campus planning.   It can become a much more complex undertaking.
这两方面都是我们的重要实践领域。不过显而易见的是，高等教育从规模上来说是更广大的市场。（M: 校区）大学校区的规模越来越多，也越来越大。另一方面来说，基础教育，小学和初中，往往是更具本地化特征的教育产品。由于种种原因，此类学校通常都会聘请本地建筑师，因为项目本身也是立足于本地社区的。当我们参与其中时，我们往往接触的都是国家级、国际级的规模更大的学校，因为我们在这方面拥有教育规划专业知识，了解此类学校设施是如何运作的。

我们现在在北美拥有大约二十个办公室。为了更好地呼应当地市场，我们正在各个办公室组建基础教育团队。

高等教育市场是更为错综复杂的市场，涉及到的不仅有教学建筑（教室），还有更专业的建筑类型。这里就涉及到学生生活，涉及到运动和娱乐，也涉及到更大范围的校园规划等等。这样一来，设计任务会变得更为复杂化。

M: We checked on the firm’s website. Your firm did high schools in Beijing and Shanghai, like Beijing Shunyi International School. Can you talk about major education projects that your firm did in China?
我们浏览了贵公司的官方网站。贵公司在北京上海等地完成了不少高中教育项目，例如北京顺义国际学校。那您能谈一谈贵公司在中国做过的重要的教育项目吗？

B: The international School of Beijing was our first project in China in mid-1990s. In China we have also designed the Concordia School in Pudong and Dulwich across the street from Concorida – plus a number of international schools and campuses. We did phase one and phase two of Concordia. Currently, we are working with Shanghai American School for very specific buildings.

In higher education, we did a fine arts building at Tsinghua University in Beijing, and we did a research facility for the Xi’an Jiaotong Liverpool University in Suzhou.

What we think is going to happen in the next few years is a shift in market focus.  In China we are seeing a shift from the commercial market to the more institutional markets. We think there is going to be more emphasis on healthcare and education – which are our strengths.
北京顺义国际学校是我们在中国所做的第一个项目，大约是在20世纪90年代中期。我们在中国设计的主要项目还包括浦东的协和学校，以及与协和隔街相对的德威学校，还有许多国际学校及校园等等。我们为协和学校的一期和二期项目进行了设计。现在，我们正在多个特定建筑上和上海美国学校进行项目合作。

在高等教育领域，我们在中国的项目主要有位于北京的清华美院楼，还有位于苏州的西交利物浦大学等等。

在我们看来，未来几年里，教育市场的发展重点将会发生转变。在中国，我们看到商业市场正在逐步转向更具社会公共机构化特征的市场。我们觉得，市场会将关注点更多地放在医疗教育上 —— 这也正是我们擅长的领域所在。

M: What do you think are the differences between the China market and the American market?
您认为中美教育市场有哪些不同之处呢？

B: I think there are differences. For example, admission policies between Chinese and Western universities and what that means in the preparation for college. The types of curriculum can be different.  But what we are now seeing the evolution of more common teaching platforms – as economies become more global and technology becomes a more dominant factor; as some of the more traditional areas of study are overshadowed by more technology-based studies and more global or universal areas of interest. We are also seeing more collaborations between western universities and universities here. For example, the Xi’an (Jiaotong Liverpool) University in Suzhou.  We are seeing school like the University of Chicago School of Business with facilities here (in the region). We are seeing such collaboration starting to create more cohesive and homogenous platforms. Yes, there are still difference. There are still nuances that come from culture or the focus. But it’s not as pronounced as it was say in 1908 when the Nanjing university buildings were designed by Dwight Perkins…or even as much as they were 15 or 20 years ago.
我认为两者是有不同之处的。例如说，中西方大学的入学政策以及由此而为升学所作的准备等等。课程的类型也可以是不同的。不过，我们正在看到较为通用化的教学平台的发展 —— 随着经济更趋于全球化，技术成为了更具主导性的要素；同时一些较为传统的学习领域因更具科技导向化的学习活动和更趋于全球化或普遍化的关注领域而变得黯然失色。我们还看到，中西方大学之间的交流合作正在增多。例如：苏州的西交利物浦大学。我们还注意到芝加哥大学商学院等高校还在这里（亚洲地区）设置了自己的教育设施。我们注意到，这样的合作开始创建出更有凝聚力和均衡性平台。的确，两者之间存在差异。来自于文化或重视层面的微妙差异仍然存在。但这种差异较以往而言，例如Dwight Perkins设计南京大学校园建筑的1908年，甚至相较于15或20年前而言，都没有那样显著了。

M: Projects that your firm did in China tend to be international schools, or famed institutions like Tsinghua university with more investments. So what about public schools or public universities? Do you see a market there in China for firms like yours?BEED Asia 必达亚洲 http://www.beed.asia
贵公司在中国的项目往往是国际学校，或者投资力度较大的声望很高的教育学府，如：清华大学。那么您如何看待公立学校或者公立大学呢？这个市场对像帕金斯威尔这样的国际建筑事务所来说又意味着什么呢？

B:  If you look at the elementary K-12, it is going to be a more difficult market for many of the same reasons that we find in the US market. K-12 schools tends to be a more local product. The community gets very involved and as they are spending local money they like to keep in the community. They tend to look at local architects from that region. They will tend to be more traditional in the way they look at education and how they structure themselves.  I don’t think we’ll be able to be as a big player in the more local markets in the next years. In the K-12, it really is the international school market where they are looking for facilities that cater to the expat community or even Chinese students that want to prepare for study in the West – in the US or the UK or France or whatever.
假如观察一下小学教育市场的话，会发现进入这个市场正在变得更难，原因和美国市场是相同的。基础教育学校是趋向于本地化的产物。所在地区参与的程度很深，同时也希望将教育设施投资留在本身的社区当中。所以往往会寻找当地的建筑师。因而此类项目看待教育的方式和自身的结构组织方式也较为传统化。在未来的几年里，在这部分市场领域，我觉得我们不会发挥很大的角色作用。在基础教育领域，希望教育设施能满足在华外国人的子女教育需要甚至是准备留学的国内学生需要的，不论是留学美国、英国或是任何其他国家的，那就是国际学校市场。

M: We did some research on international schools. There will be almost 600 hundred international K-12 schools in China. Do you think it will be a big market for Perkins+Will in the next few years?
我们针对国际学校做过一些调查。中国未来将会兴建近600所基础教育类的国际学校。那么在您看来，接下来的几年里国际学校对帕金斯威尔而言会是一个很大的发展市场吗？

B: It has potential. I think it depends on how we position ourselves. The challenge we have as an international firm in a market like China that is maturing is we have to figure out how we play in this market, how we position ourselves. I think as a market matures, and this is true that any market that is maturing, you have to rethink your position in that market and how you provide services for that market. It has to be more localized. While we have certain expertise, we have to take that brand and that expertise and bring it more directly into the Chinese market and localize it, especially in the K-12 market. That doesn’t mean that we can’t tap in certain experts, but we have to have more solid delivery base here for services. It’s not as critical yet in the higher-education market because those can be more specialized buildings but it will be.
发展潜力是有的。我觉得这主要取决于我们如何进行自我定位。作为一家国际型事务所，我们在市场中面临的挑战在于，随着中国市场的日趋成熟化，我们需要认清如何在这样的市场中去开展业务实践，需要去重新思考在市场中的自我定位，需要去重新思考如何在这样的市场提供服务。服务就需要更为本地化。我们需要运用专业技能，将品牌和专长以更直接的方式引入到中国市场，并将其本地化，尤其是在基础教育这样的市场当中。但这并不意味着我们无法使内部的国际专家与之接轨，通过这样的方式，我们需要在中国夯实更扎实的服务根基。相比之下，高等教育市场的发展紧迫性还没有这样强，因为这个市场可以拥有更多专业性强的建筑，也将会拥有这样的建筑。

M: We’ve noticed that specialized buildings on campus like laboratory or student center may often be designed by an international architect. But at the construction phase, clients will turn to local design firms for services. So it is an opportunity for your firm?
我们注意到校园内的专业建筑往往出自国际建筑师之手。不过在施工阶段，业主方还是寻求本地设计院提供相关服务。对贵公司来说，这是否可以看作是发展机遇呢？

B: Yes. I think it’s more so than in the K-12 market. Even in the US, when we look at the higher-ed market, there are very few green field universities developed from scratch. It is always a building on a campus. he buildings we design are the more specialized buildings – like the laboratory buildings and the research facilities. Another prominent area are student unions, or the student life buildings, or buildings for student activities. Higher-ed buildings tend to be more specialized. It depends on the focus of the university, what the curriculum is, what their focus is. Sports and recreation facilities are becoming another area of specialized buildings. If you look at a university, the more general classrooms or the maybe dormitories are less sophisticated than the lab buildings, or performing arts buildings, or the special engineering buildings. We are now involved with several medical education projects where medical universities link to a hospital, so we are able to bring our two stronger markets together – healthcare and education.

I think this is a trend you are going to continue to see with higher education – where the buildings for the education process become more driven by technology and more sophisticated as the universities adapt to what the economies and what the world is generally looking for.
没错。我觉得较之基础教育市场，高等教育市场拥有更多国际建筑师的设计作品。甚至在美国的高等教育市场，从零开始建设的大学是十分少见的。校园通常都会些既有建筑。我们设计的建筑更偏向于专业性很强的建筑，比如：实验室楼和科研设施等等。另一个主要的实践领域就是学生中心，或是学生生活楼，或者说用于开展学生活动的建筑等等。高等教育建筑往往更为专业化。这取决于一所大学的发展重点、课程内容和重点专业课程等等。运动娱乐设施正在成为新的专业建筑发展领域。假如观察一所大学，你就会发现较为通用型的教室或者宿舍与实验室楼、演艺楼或工程楼相比复杂程度是较低的。我们现在参与的几个医学教育项目是将医科大学与医院联系到一起，因而也使我们得以在医疗和教育这两大尤为擅长的市场领域将专长结合和发挥出来。

我认为，人们在高等教育领域将会持续看到这样一个趋势 —— 教育建筑会愈加受到技术的驱动影响，并且随着高等学府不断顺应经济发展和全球发展的要求，还会使这些建筑变得更为复杂化。

M: We heard some horrifying news regarding the unacceptable air quality and toxic playground materials in certain schools in China. Material does matter especially to schools, where kids learn and develop. So we want to know your ideas in the selection of building materials or technologies on education projects? Is there any quality control measures that your firm is using now? How do designers and architects in your firm work in the material selection process?BEED Asia 必达亚洲 http://www.beed.asia
我们通过新闻了解到某些国内学校有关空气质量不佳和毒跑道事件等报道。材料对学校而言尤为重要，那是孩子们学习和发展的空间。所以我们想听听您在教育项目上选择建筑材料或技术方面有哪些看法？贵公司有没有正在践行的一些项目质控措施？公司内部的建筑师和设计师的选材流程是怎样的呢？

B: Our material selection is particular. What we have done in the last few years, and this didn’t come from our education or healthcare practice but from our firm wide focus on sustainable design, is our transparency website with its Precautionary List of materials. This is a list is where we identify materials that we believe are unacceptable and more importantly materials that have potential problems, whether it is toxic or just generally is bad from a sustainability standpoint. We generated our list of materials which we have concerns with and made it available on our special website (http://transparency.perkinswill.com). However, while we have a list of concerning materials, you can’t generate a list and say that’s it.  It’s going to be a growing, evolving list, a living list that is looked at all the time and we do look materials. We are very aware, especially in education facilities and in healthcare facilities, of the materials we put there.  Just using certain fabrics on a chair requires a knowledge of what we are specifying.  Some material may use a more toxic chemical.  We try to identify those. The trouble is, like I said earlier, it is a constant ongoing situation because things change and new materials become available. It is a constant, on-going effort that we are going through.  We are aware of it and its importance.

One example is the use of asbestos in the 1950s. Everybody thought it was a wonderful product, so we used it everywhere. Then it’s just discovered that it has problems. That is not a question of design. That’s a question finally understanding what the limits are.  Anytime a new product comes out, there is always a long-term impact that we won’t fully understand for a long time. What we can do, what we have to do is try to try to stay ahead of it, use common sense with certain materials, and try to identify things that have problems and most importantly  keep them out of schools and keep them out of hospitals and healthcare facilities.
我们选择材料的流程是很特别的。在过去的几年里，我们在这方面所做的是创立了我们的“透明”网站，将关于有害物质的研究成果以预防清单的形式发布出来，这样做的原因并非基于教育或医疗等某一个领域的需要，而是在全公司范围内出于对可持续设计的高度重视。在这份清单里，我们明确了哪些材料（物质）是我们认为不可被接受的，更重要的是，那些材料（物质）具有潜在的健康问题，是否有毒性，或者从整体上而言不利于可持续的环境。我们建立起了这样的一个材料清单数据库，人们都可以访问我们的网站去了解这些内容(http://transparency.perkinswill.com)。尽管我们有了这份材料清单，但这并不意味着高枕无忧和停滞不前。这份清单的内容是在不断发展和扩充的，这是一张活的清单，需要我们一直去留心关注，注意我们所选用的材料。我们非常重视用在项目当中的材料，尤其是用在教育设施和医疗设施上的材料。即使是一把座椅所用的某种织物，也需要运用专门的知识去加以限定。一些材料可能会使用有害的化学物质。我们竭尽所能地去识别它们。正如我之前所说的，问题在于这是一个持续进行的过程，因为状况是不断变化的，新的材料也在不断出现。因而我们在这方面的工作努力也是持续进行的。我们重视材料的选择，也意识到了它的重要性。

以20世纪50年代所用的石棉为例。当时每个人都以为这是个很棒的产品，所以到处都在使用。之后才发现了它所存在的健康问题。这个问题的出现与设计选材无关。这是归结到底是认识限度的问题。每个新产品诞生后，都有会长期的影响，我们只有通过较长的时间才能去完全了解这些。我们能做的和我们必须要做的就是尽可能地保持领先，运用有关某些材料的常识性知识，尽可能地明确存在的问题，最重要的是，将有害的材料排除到学校、医院及医疗设施之外。

M: While US is a developed country, China now is a developing country.  So do you think solutions in the US today could be used in China in the future, like design ideas or concepts on school projects?
美国是发达国家，中国是发展中国家。那么在您看来，美国的解决方案是否能用到中国将来的项目中呢，例如学校项目中的设计理念或概念？

B:  What I see happening it is not so much about a US model is being brought to China, but rather that education is changing, it is becoming a different animal so to speak. Relationships – teacher to student, student to student, student to the university or the school – are all changing and this is impacting the types of space that are needed and in ways that we don’t fully understand yet. If you look the progression from teacher-student, student-student, to student, students are becoming more interactive with other students but they are also becoming more independent. “With plug and play, I can study at home.” One of the fastest growing university types is long-distance education. What we are seeing with the design of facilities is more emphasis on flexibility, on being able to more easily adapt to whatever the changes may be. This implies that some spaces that have more fixed typed seating – like a Harvard style classroom with tiered seating– may be less practical than a general classroom where you can change furniture layouts and change to different configurations. Technology allows things to be done a lot differently. Part of the reason for a Harvard styled room was the teacher-student relationship.  The teacher was down front and you projected down to the front. The media was always fixed and controlled. With “plug and play” and wireless technology, this becomes less of an issue. We are seeing a greater emphasis on flexibility because the education models need this.

Buildings are expensive. Education building, especially research buildings can be very expensive.  When you invest in these – like any other real estate issue – you have to get maximum value for your money. So the more efficiently and the more effectively you can use the space, the better the building – the better the value. Let’s say you have an auditorium for 500 people and you use it five times a week. Is that more effective than having eight classrooms that you can use twelve hours a day?

How does that affect your teaching model? How does that affect your attitude toward teacher-student relationships? These are the things that people are thinking about.

Another thing that is starting to happen – and this is again be effecting the types of spaces needed – is the cross pollinizing between different curricula. For instance, if it is more about problem-solving (rather than the transfer of knowledge), you may see an engineering student, a finance student with a business student working together solving a problem. You need spaces where these different curricula can come together – can work together, can collaborate. We don’t know exactly where all of this is going. We see trends. I think what this tells us is that we need to maintain a degree of flexibility in the way we design building and the way buildings are designed. If there is a lesson to be learned; if an example or a lesson comes from what we are learned whether the US or from around the world, it is in flexibility.

One of the issues that we see in addressing new trend in very traditional, old-line universities is they tend to be very traditional, and it is sometimes hard for these older administrations to break with that tradition and recognize that the more flexible spaces or more different types of spaces are important.
从我所看到的现状来看，与其说将美国模式引入中国，不如说教育正在发生改变，打比方来说，正在变成不同的动物。教师和学生的关系、学生之间的关系以及学生与学校的关系都正在发生改变，而这些正在影响着所需空间的类型，而我们对这些正在发生的新变化还没有全面彻底的认识。假如回看一下教师-学生、学生-学生等关系的发展演变进程，就会发现学生彼此的互动正在增多，但同时学生个体也正变得更具有独立性。“通过即插即用的方式，我可以在家学习。”发展速度最快的大学类型之一便是远程教育。我们正在看到的是，设施的设计更加重视灵活性，以便能够更轻松地适应未来的种种变化。这也意味着，一些设置了较固定式座椅的空间 – 如哈佛式阶梯教室 – 和通用教室相比可能就没有那样实用。在通用教室里，你可以改变家具布局，变成不同的配置方式。科技让一切变得大为不同。哈佛式阶梯教室出现的部分原因在于学生与教师之间的关系。教师在教室前面，你朝向前方就坐。媒介都是固定的和受控的状态。而通过“即插即用”技术和无线技术，这样的布局问题就容易解决了。我们注意到，对灵活性的重视程度正在提高，因为教育模式需要它。

建筑是昂贵的投资。教育建筑，尤其是科研建筑，是非常昂贵的投资。当你投资在这些领域的时候 — 如同其他的房地产投资一样 — 需要实现收益最大化。因而空间利用越有效和高效，建筑就越好 — 价值也就越大。假如你拥有一座500人礼堂，每周使用率是五次。那么，相比之下，拥有一天使用12小时的八间教室是不是更高效些呢？

这会如何影响你的教学模式？如何影响你对师生关系的态度呢？这些都是需要人们去思考的问题。

另一个正在开始发生的 — 同时也再次影响到所需空间类型的 — 就是不同学科的交叉渗透。比如说：假如偏重于解决问题的话（而非传授知识的话），你可能会看到一位工程系学生、一位金融系学生和一位商学系学生共同协力研究。那么，就需要使不同课程相结合的空间，使学生们可以一起工作，一起交流。我们并不完全清楚最终的发展结果会怎样。但我们看到这样的发展趋势。我认为这是在告诉我们，我们设计建筑的方式以及我们所设计的建筑都需要保持一定的灵活性。如果说有值得我们吸取的经验教训的话，无论是在美国，还是在全球各地，那始终就是要具备灵活性。

在应对新的发展趋势的同时，我们面临的问题之一是在非常古老和传统的大学机构里，人们往往非常保守，有时很难打破传统，肯定较为灵活的空间或较为不同的空间类型的重要性。

M: Clients also emphasize the flexibility like in a laboratory, in a research space or in an office where they may expect changes in every few months. So do you think that architecture design can support the teaching and learning process?
业主方在实验室、科研区或者办公室等需要不断发展变化的空间也很重视灵活性。那么您认为建筑设计能够为教学过程发挥作用吗？

B: Yes, it has to. I mean this is what architecture is really about. In the last few decades, architecture has become very “iconic”.  It has sometimes become an image for the sake of the image. If you look at what Perkins+Will has designed, if you go back to 1935, we started in school. We were one of the first firms to develop a dedicated healthcare practice. We have a dedicated laboratory practice. These are buildings are driven by function, by the purpose of the building. And I think any architecture has to be driven by the purpose of the building. So yes. I think for us when we start a project, it’s not just about creating an image, or creating a mass, or creating some iconic sculpture. It’s about understanding the way that school or that hospital or that laboratory wants to work, and then help that client understand what the future trends are and try to develop a building that first works as a school, whatever its purpose is, is futureproof so it can adapt to, within the reason, whatever the future may bring, and then become a significant piece of architecture.  Architecture without function is really just sculpture.

When you get to architecture about institutional, about lifestyle, about education, it has to be about function first.  It is the architect’s job to turn – to transform that function into something that fits the environment, fits the location, creates an image for the institution you are designing for –  in healthcare, it connotes wellbeing, in education it connotes friendly atmosphere of student activities, student interaction, a sense of security, a sense of learning.
能发挥作用，也必须发挥作用。我的意思是说，这正是建筑的本质所在。在过去几十年里，建筑已经变得极具“标志性”。有时甚至是为了造型而“造”型。但假如回顾帕金斯威尔的设计，早在1935年，当时我们创立之初设计了一所学校。我们还是首批建立了专门的医疗实践团队的事务所之一。我们拥有专门的实验室实践团队。由此创造的建筑都是由功能、由建筑的用途而推导形成的。我认为，任何建筑都应该以建筑用途作为驱动力。所以没错，我觉得对我们来说，当我们着手开展一个项目的时候，不仅仅是在塑造一个形象，创造一个体量，或是打造一些标志性的雕塑作品。重要的在于，要去了解学校、医院或实验室的工作方式，之后去帮助业主方了解未来相关领域的发展趋势，尽力发展出能够发挥学校用途或是其他特定用途作用的建筑，同时还要确保建筑能够应对未来的发展变化，顺应未来所会出现的情况，然后才是成为一件重要的建筑作品。缺少功能性的建筑真的只是一件雕塑而已。

当你通过建筑去探究公共机构、生活方式及教育的时候，功能必须是第一位的，建筑师的本质工作就是去将功能转化到实体当中，并且适应环境，适应所在位置，同时为你所设计的机构塑造一种形象 —— 在医疗领域，你所塑造的形象要去传达健康安乐；在教育领域，则要去体现学生活动及互动的友好氛围，传达安全庇保障感与学习的意识。

M: What services does Perkins+Will has been focusing on, like planning, design, construction, architecture, interiors?
请问帕金斯威尔关注在哪些具体服务领域，比如：规划、设计、施工或者说建筑设计、室内设计等等？

B: Everything but not construction. We do not construct, but we can document for construction. Yes. Within our practice areas of education – let’s talk about that – we have people that are planners of education. They can define the spaces needed. They can work with the client. They can lay out the spaces. They can look at different arrangements. They can understand the relationships between the administrative and the classroom or what types of libraries there are. And they understand trends in education or healthcare. Architects, most of our architects, have worked on these building types so they understand these relationships. It is an important relationship between the planner, the architectural designer and the interior designer, and we provide all of that. We have project manager and director that direct the whole thing.

With interiors of spaces, when you get the plan is done and when you think about the mass of the building and the architecture, the interiors then becomes a very important part. Because it starts establishing the ambience of the project, the feel of the project. This is where understanding materials as we have talked about, avoiding the dangerous materials coming to contact with people. They have to be aware of this. But color and material play a big part of establishing a feel for that project. They establish what it’s like. If you went to school with very red interiors, you wouldn’t feel like you are going to a school.
除了施工以外的这些服务都有。我们不做施工，但可以做施工阶段配合工作。没错，在我们的教育实践领域里 — 以此为例 — 我们拥有教育规划师。他们有能力界定空间需求。他们有能力与业主方沟通合作。他们有能力布局各种空间。他们有能力考量不同的布置方式。他们懂得行政和教室之间的关系，或是清楚图书馆都有哪些类型。他们还懂得教育或医疗领域的发展趋势。我们多数的建筑师都在这些类型的建筑项目上工作过，懂得其中需要处理的各种联系。规划师、建筑师和室内设计师之间的工作联系是十分重要的，而这些都包含在我们的服务范围内。我们还拥有项目经理和管理整个项目运作的项目总监等专业人员。

谈到空间的室内设计，当规划工作完成的时候，当你思考建筑体量和建筑本身的时候，室内随之变成了十分重要的组成部分。因为它开始营造项目的氛围和项目给人带来的感觉。这时候就需要我们去了解我们刚才谈到的材料，需要避免人们接触有害材料。这些专业人员必须有这样的意识。不过色彩和材料的确在营造项目空间感觉的过程中发挥了很大的作用。它们所营造的氛围就是项目呈现出来的样子。假如你去了一所学校，发现室内是红彤彤的颜色，就不会很想去上学了。

M: For that part, most of the training centers, or some western institutions like Harvard as you mentioned from US, when they come to China and they don’t build a campus or a building. Instead, they rent a kind of office in a CBD or somewhere else. Has Perkins+Will done projects of such kind in China? Is it part of your business here?
谈到这方面，多数的培训中心或是国外的教育机构，比如您刚才提到的美国哈佛大学，通常来中国都不是以建立校区或者建筑设施的形式，而是租用中央商务区或其他地区的办公设施。那么帕金斯威尔在中国是否做过此类项目？这也是贵公司在中国的部分业务内容吗？

B: We’ve done that. I mean, there is no single type of university, even in Chicago or in New York, you have universities that rent spaces in office buildings like you just talked about. What our job is to take whatever space they decided to use. For example, if the University of Chicago wants to come here and set up a business school, we help them as best as we can.  The educational planner, the interior designer will work with them. Obviously, you can’t come into a space like this and set up research laboratories.  It really depends on what they are trying to do. You can set up small classrooms in a space like this.
我们做过这样的项目。我是指没有单一类型的大学，即使是在芝加哥或纽约，也有租用办公楼作为使用空间的大学，就像你刚才提到的那样。我们的工作任务是在业主方决定使用的任何空间内进行设计。比如说，芝加哥大学想要来这里建立一所商学院的话，我们会竭尽所能地去帮助他们。教育规划师、室内设计师也会和他们共同合作。不过很显然，你不会在我们今天访谈这样的空间设置科研实验室。所以这确实要取决于他们想要实现的目的。当然，在我们今天访谈的空间里设置小型教室是可行的。

M: Do you think it’s a trend for such kind of global business schools to come to china to expand their presence?
请问您是否认为这样的全球型商学院来中国拓展市场是一种发展趋势？

B: It depends on how big they want to be and how they want to tap into the market. I think the real question is not for the university; it is for the students going there and what they want. Like everything else, it’s very market sensitive.  If the University of Chicago, if Harvard, if Stanford, whoever, they decide to come here, they have to come here as a business for selling education. They have to create a space that allows them to sell education.  If this does not work, students won’t come here. So there is a high level of design but there is also a base business model that these schools have to function under. Even state schools, public schools have to, at some point, hit some criteria. There is always some measurements whether it’s the market or standards the schools set.
这要取决于他们想要发展多大的规模以及希望如何进入市场。我觉得真正的问题不在于大学教育机构，而是在于去那里求学的学生以及他们想要的是什么。就如同一切其他领域一样，需要对市场特别敏感。假如芝加哥大学，或者哈佛，或者斯坦福，或是其他教育机构等决定来到这里，他们就需要去营销自己的教育产品。因而也需要创造一个为销售教育产品提供条件的空间。假如这样行不通的话，学生就不会来这里求学。所以就需要高水平的设计，同时还需要一个基本的商业模式，使这些学校得以在这个模式下进行运转。即使是国立学校、公立学校，在某种程度上，也必须要达到一些标准。无论是市场也好，还是学校设定的标准也好，始终都要有一些衡量尺度。

M: So do you know any Chicago business school that has already come to China?
那么您知道具体哪些芝加哥的商学院已经入驻中国了吗？

B: I know they are in Singapore; I am not sure if they are in China yet. I know that many universities are looking for affiliations in Asia. What is happening is there is a developing middle-class in Asia, and as middle-class develops, as economies grow and improve, there is a growing emphasis on the social infrastructure – to be localized – whether it’s healthcare or education.  You don’t want to send your kids to the State’s any more.  This is becoming an opportunity for international, US, Western, European universities – to come here and create an affiliation with a local university.  We have seen this with Duke University in Singapore, the University of Chicago business school, Liverpool Xi’an. We helped develop two projects in Middle East in Doha – one was a Weill Cornell Medical school, which is a pure medical school located in Doha and the other one is the Academic Bridge Program Building.  Both are on the Education City campus. I think there is a market. We see a lot of universities trying to figure out whom to associate with and how to do it.   We are trying to help.
据我所知，他们在新加坡有分支机构，但不清楚在中国是否也有。不过我知道很多大学教育机构都在亚洲寻求附属机构。亚洲的中产阶级人群正在崛起，随着中产阶级的发展，经济的增长和提升，对社会基础设施的关注度也在不断增加 — 这些都将趋于本地化 — 无论是医疗，还是教育。人们不再将孩子送到美国深造，而对于国际型大学、美国的、欧洲或其他西方的大学机构而言正在成为一个发展机遇 —— 来到这里，与本地大学联合创建联合机构。这方面的例子包括新加坡的杜克大学、芝加哥大学商学院、西交利物浦大学等等。我们在中东的多哈帮助发展过两个项目 —— 其中一个是威尔康奈尔医学院，是位于多哈的纯医科学校；另一个是“学术桥”预备课程的建筑项目。这两个项目都是在教育城园区里。我觉得这方面是有市场的。我们看到很多大学正在考虑与哪方联合办学和如何操作等问题。我们也正在竭尽所能地去提供帮助。

M: We’ve noticed that Shanghai already has international universities, for example, the Shanghai New York University.
我们发现上海已经有了很多国际大学，比如：上海纽约大学等等。

B: Certain Universities in the US have more global view than the others and are looking for other markets to tap into.

These tend to be universities that have long and significant relationships with foreign students in their programs. So now they are asking, “if they come here, why can’t we go there?”

Going back to take your first question, if there was a difference between Chinese and Western, this is where they are morphing together. Because the curriculum and teaching styles aren’t as really as culture-based as they were in the past.  It is not so much about the liberal arts, which is very culture centric. Business, engineering, medicine, which has less local nuances, are really becoming more of a global education platform.
美国的某些大学相比之下拥有更全球化的发展眼光，也正在积极寻求其他的发展市场。

这类大学往往都是在招收外国留学生方面拥有较长历史和重要联系的大学。所以现在他们开始发问：“既然他们来这里，为什么我们不去那里呢？”

那又把我们带回了最开始的问题，假如说中西方之间存在不同之处的话，那么在这一点上他们正在一起经历着改变。因为课程和教学方式不像以往那般依赖于文化了。这比不得人文学科，那是非常具有文化导向性的。商务、工程、医药等专业的本地性差别都变得越来越小了，并且正在真正成为更具全球化特征的教育平台。